John Paul Dejoria & Michaeline Dejoria
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Episode Information
This week we welcome the co-founder of John Paul Mitchell Systems and the company’s new CEO, John Paul DeJoria and Michaeline DeJoria. John Paul Mitchell Systems® was founded in 1980 by John Paul DeJoria and Paul Mitchell, and it has grown to become a thoughtful and socially conscious billion-dollar business empire. John Paul Mitchell Systems® was the first professional haircare company to take a stand against animal testing and continues its commitment to giving back, supporting a wide range of philanthropic causes both domestically and internationally. In part one, Michaeline talks about what she’s learned so far in her role as CEO and the most important priorities she is tackling. JP shares his thoughts on the legacy of his co-founder, Paul Mitchell, and why he doesn’t use email.
In part two We wrap up our conversation with the co-founder of John Paul Mitchell Systems and the company’s new CEO, John Paul DeJoria and Michaeline DeJoria. John Paul talks about what he learned about himself when dealing with professional adversity and Michaeline discusses how she started on the plant floor and immersed herself in all aspects of the business before taking over as the company’s CEO.
About John Paul: John Paul DeJoria’s inspirational rags-to-riches success story exemplifies the American Dream. He has risen against the odds not only to achieve success, but to share his success with others.
After high school and service with honors in the U.S. Navy, John Paul did whatever it took to make ends meet—from selling encyclopedias and working as a janitor to pumping gasoline. He was even homeless at one time. Eventually, John Paul took his talents to several hair care and cosmetic companies before becoming an independent consultant. That’s when he teamed up with his friend Paul Mitchell to launch John Paul Mitchell Systems®.
In 1980, with just $700 in their pockets, the two friends created a company for hairdressers, salons and the beauty industry as a whole. Instead of selling to a public corporation, John Paul vowed to keep the company family-owned and privately held, ensuring that Paul Mitchell® products are only sold in the professional beauty industry.
As a businessman, environmentalist and philanthropist, John Paul has donated his time, money and expertise to helping others, always on behalf of hairdressers and the professional beauty industry. John Paul, along with Brad Pitt, Richard Branson and the late Nelson Mandela, was a patron of Mineseeker, a nonprofit organization dedicated to seeking solutions to the worldwide problem of landmines. John Paul was honored with the Sustainability Award at Fashion Group International’s 25th Annual Night of Stars event, and was also inducted as a lifetime member into the Horatio Alger Association of Distinguished Americans. In 2010, he founded Grow Appalachia, a non-profit initiative that teaches families in need how to grow, prepare and preserve organic fruits and vegetables in a region with little access to fresh, nutritious food. John Paul was a featured panel member on ABC’s hit television show Shark Tank, where he served as a mentor and potential investor for aspiring entrepreneurs.
About Michaeline: Michaeline DeJoria, daughter of John Paul Mitchell Systems® co-founder John Paul DeJoria, has fond memories of growing up in Los Angeles and visiting her dad’s office as a young child. Now she’s the CEO of John Paul Mitchell Systems®, where she directs the company’s future development for all brands. Michaeline started out working in various departments before arriving at her current position; it was important to her that she immersed herself in all aspects of the business before taking on a leadership role. This experience informs her managerial style to this day—making processes and departments streamlined and organized, with an emphasis on finding new opportunities for improvement.
Michaeline studied Product Development at the Fashion Institute of Design & Merchandising, as well as Organizational Communications and Industrial Psychology at Pepperdine University. She is an avid traveler, enjoying an appreciation and understanding of many cultures throughout the world. Philanthropy also plays a big part in her life—she makes substantial contributions to children’s causes, Los Angeles schools, and numerous health and research causes.
Read The Transcript
Welcome to Magnify Your Impact, presented by ForbesBooks. Each week, our hosts, Maggie Miller and Hannah Nokes talk with business leaders, powering their company success with a secret ingredient, purpose. Here's Maggie and Hannah.
Hannah Nokes (00:35):
It's one thing to build a great company, but it's another thing to build a great company that has stood the test of time. John Paul Mitchell Systems, was founded in 1980 by John Paul DeJoria and Paul Mitchell. And it has grown to become a thoughtful and socially conscious billion dollar business empire. John Paul Mitchell was the first professional haircare company to take a stand against animal testing and continues its commitment to giving back. Supporting a wide range of philanthropic causes both domestically and internationally.
Maggie Miller (01:03):
And this week we're grateful to be joined by the company's Co-founder and the company's new CEO, John Paul DeJoria, and Michaeline DeJoria.
Hannah Nokes (01:12):
John Paul, welcome to the podcast.
John Paul DeJoria (01:15):
Thank you.
Hannah Nokes (01:15):
Michaeline thank you so much for joining us today.
Michaeline DeJoria (01:17):
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Nokes (01:19):
Michaeline we should start by congratulating you, John Paul Mitchell Systems named you CEO earlier this year. And I read in an article where you said you found a letter from when you were three years old saying, "I want to hurry up and finish preschool so I can graduate and start my job as the CEO of Paul Mitchell."
Michaeline DeJoria (01:33):
True.
Hannah Nokes (01:33):
I thought that was great.
John Paul DeJoria (01:33):
It is true.
Hannah Nokes (01:37):
Can you tell us about your experience so far in this role and what does it meant for you to carry on this legacy?
Michaeline DeJoria (01:43):
Oh, it's tremendous honor would truly be an understatement. It's my lifelong dream realized, which is still a pinch me moment. I'm still not certain it's quite hit me yet, but it's been fantastic. I think personally and professionally to be recognized by not only the company and my peers and my mentors, but also personally, just from my own dad to be trusted with something that's meant so much to him for my entire life and watching how much passion and love he poured into it, to be given that amount of trust in my leadership is tremendous honor.
Maggie Miller (02:18):
John Paul, you've said that your daughter Michaeline earned this position and that the difficult year of COVID presented an opportunity for her to be steady and an unbelievable leader. And I'd love to hear what else you love about Michaeline's leadership style.
John Paul DeJoria (02:37):
Oh, you bet, because that's so easy to say, because for example, it's one of the main things I look at and she's been this way, most of her life. She could be humble and extremely kind, but still strong at the same time. And that's, I think a real plus for business leaders to think about in the future. It's not the old time manager being mean to people and just say, "Well, I'm the boss. That's why you do it." She's humble, includes everybody and on it, very kind to them, but strongest can be at the same time. And I think that is just great. Plus not to mention the incredible follow through that has, she actually follows through. And during tough times, she doesn't stumble. She's had a lot of obstacles thrown her way here in this last year. And she did an exceptional job of overcoming those and looking at the bright side and sticking it out until it's accomplished.
John Paul DeJoria (03:23):
So, I could not be any more of a proud dad. And as I've said, many times that, she is one that deserved it because she worked for it. It was never handed to her. She is just exceeding expectations. She's growing the company. She has that aspect of, "Let's look what the younger generation wants. Let's look at what the middle generation wants and let's look how we can put those together and have hair stylist help those generations look better and feel better because that's where they're going." And those are just a few of the things I see extra about Michaeline's style.
Maggie Miller (03:54):
Michaeline, you are a millennial CEO and in our book, Hannah and I talk about millennials leading the social responsibility charge and how there'll be 75% of the workforce in the next couple of years. I read about your excitement also to be innovative and everything you do. And I know that you've mentioned that after being in this traditional model for the past 10 years, you want to just go after the world and think outside the box. I'd love to hear about some of the facets of the company that you're most excited or focused on thinking outside of the box.
Michaeline DeJoria (04:28):
Thank you for that great question. It's a topic I love speaking to and every facet of the business. I think one of the great joys for me is being so deeply rooted in the ethos of the company and in the original values and commitment to the beauty industry. But also at the same time, I can have my feet on the ground there and also my head can go up into the clouds and re-imagine things in all new ways. So for me, it's really beautiful to be able to take something that has such strong ethos and has that North Star firmly set and find creative ways to get there. Some of the areas in which I'm most excited about as it pertains to innovation is in product development, marketing, and in how we speak to the consumer. I think there are many areas and many ways in which we can do that, that are more outside the box than what we've traditionally done.
Michaeline DeJoria (05:19):
And I also love the challenge for myself of just going back to simple thinking. And sometimes in doing that, I find the greatest and most efficient innovation. For example, one of the stories that John Paul used to always talk about was, "When we were starting the business, we didn't have an office. So, instead we spent money on an answering machine and we asked our friend with a British accent to record something on it. So we sound official." I still see opportunities like that. I think sometimes corporations and especially people in positions of power feel compelled to come up with larger, more intricate, more expensive moves when really there's such a beautiful, satisfying joy in finding a win and a success in something that can empower your people, doesn't cost much. And it's not a matter of working harder. It's about just working smarter and thinking outside the box to speak to people in a way and in a place where it's most relevant.
Maggie Miller (06:14):
Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
Hannah Nokes (06:16):
John Paul, a lot of people have heard about how you and Paul Mitchell started the company with just
$700, which I think is amazing. I know you experienced the great loss of this wonderful friend and partner in 1989. And I read a beautiful line from when he was laid to rest, "When we become aware of the effect that we, as individuals can exert on the planet, we can connect with the ranks of the great ones who have changed history with their personal achievements." What do you think were some of the greatest legacies or the greatest legacy that Paul gave to you and the company?
John Paul DeJoria (06:52):
No one's ever asked me that question before, it's a darn good question, okay. One, he really loved hairdressers. He was a hairdresser obviously and wanting to, shall we say, expand them and make them even more powerful through good actions. I'll give you an example, how much he loved the word, hairdresser, everything he would fill out when we became very successful and they asked for occupation, he never put down, President John Paul Mitchell Systems. He always wrote down as his career and his employment was, hairdresser. "What do you do?" "Hairdresser." Always hairdresser. He was a very proud hairdresser and knew that we could empower hairdressers.
John Paul DeJoria (07:32):
So, he would go around the country doing so many shows to teach, not only hairstylist, how to do different new designs of hairstyles, but how to be more business people. How do you promote different products they should use in between visits, so their hair looks the same. He was really behind the
industry and a good lesson to be taught was, if you're in an industry, get into it all the way. If you truly believe in that industry, if not get out of that industry. And that's when the best things Paul left,
[inaudible 00:07:59], is very spiritual, a really good guy. One, include everybody and put the hairdresser first. And we followed that same attitude with the company.
Maggie Miller (08:06):
That's wonderful. I heard at the headquarters of John Paul Mitchell Systems and their patrone, each has a fax machine for one purpose. And that's communicating with you. I know that you don't have a computer or email because you said you wouldn't be able to get any work done. And you prefer personal contact. As I hear you talk about Paul and his legacy about deepening connections, Hannah and I also talk a lot about how inviting stakeholders into the vision of the company is part of the legacy that the North Star deepens connections beyond the bottom line. What do you think business leaders can take away about deepening the power of personal connections?
John Paul DeJoria (08:48):
Another great question, okay. Number one, by me not being on a computer or doing email or whatever, I just do phone calls or texting. I have a more of a personal relationship with somebody. And in the time I'm not doing the emailing, which I don't have. I have time to think. And one of the best advice I could give to up and coming people is, whatever you do get some time out of your day to think. We always seem to be so booked with everything, we can barely get through the day, but we haven't booked time to think. For me, I have that extra time, especially if philanthropy that I do right now, but to think. And all people should always have some time. When I was building Paul Mitchell. My time to think was late at night. I was just so busy all during the day.
John Paul DeJoria (09:33):
But somehow, maybe once a week, I found some time to think about, "What am I doing now? Where am I going? How are things progressing?" The more that happens, the better it is. Also, by being personal with your customer. I've always felt that business is built on relationships, E-commerce is wonderful. But when I get a piece of paper from someone, let's say a letter, I will either on the spot, write the answer on the letter and have my assistant Kelly just fax it or email it right back to the person. So, I didn't have to write another one. What's this called? [inaudible 00:10:04], moving parts. One piece of paper at a time. Or if I've got a call on it, I will on the spot, make a quick phone call. So, that's all done before the piece of paper is there. If it's trivia, I either hand it to somebody else or immediately throw it away and shred it.
John Paul DeJoria (10:19):
I don't try to answer every piece of trivia. There's just too much going on. But by doing this, people know that I'm approachable. I will call you back on the telephone, if you call me and I know me. Now, obviously to get a hold of me, isn't that easy, otherwise I'd be so inundated. I wouldn't want to answer the phone anymore, but if people need to get ahold of me that know me or in businesses, there'll be one way or another to get ahold of me. My secretary may screen them out a little bit, but by gosh, I'm the one that will call back, if it's something that I think of importance, it's something that should be called back. So, this is what I think people should realize in the future, that no matter how technologically advanced we get, don't leave out that human communication.
John Paul DeJoria (11:00):
People love to hear your personal voice and you care enough to give them a call or care enough to write them a letter. I just jot down some of the answers on the letter they wrote me or the email they send via one of my secretaries to me and send it right back. It leaves that personal contact and today let's face it. How many people write personal, most of people in business? Very, very few. It lets me say something personal and keep that personal contact.
Hannah Nokes (11:25):
John Paul, would you say that, that personal connection and getting to know people as whole humans has been one of the secrets to your success?
John Paul DeJoria (11:36):
One of the huge secrets to my success. I may want to add another one in there, also, that was the secret to my success. And I don't mind sharing with others. When I started Paul Mitchell, John Paul Mitchell Systems, we had no money. So, we really were hoping people could reorder. We made sure that the product we made was so good, people would want to reorder it. So, instead of thinking of going to the selling business, we thought about going into the reorder business. We had no money for advertising, no money for promotion, but we knew that we had the finest quality and we gave it to hairstylists.
John Paul DeJoria (12:13):
Hairstylists know the difference more than advertising on TV can ever tell you. That's advertising. They work with it. So, we knew if we sold through hairdressers and it was an sensational product, they would want to reorder it. So, I think people should realize where you go into business, don't think about, "I want to sell my product." Think about, "I want to make it so good that my service or my product, that's physical, somebody will want to reorder." And if it's a one-time service or one-time product, it's so darn good. They'll want to tell their friends about it. And they may want to order a whole different way of looking at things. Make sure that quality is there.
Hannah Nokes (12:49):
Michaeline speaking of the secrets to your success. Maggie and I talk a lot with company leaders about using their unique superpowers, their products, services, and resources to serve the world. We talk about, what is your competitive advantage is the same thing that you can use to make an impact in the world around you. And I believe that you guys, more than many companies have got that right. I saw that you spearheaded the company's COVID-19 relief initiatives, producing hand sanitizer, and you had the $4 million salon jumpstart stimulus package to get salons back on their feet, which was incredible. Can you tell us how you came up with those concepts? How you think about using the superpowers of the company to do good in the world around you?
Michaeline DeJoria (13:36):
Well, the Jumpstart Salon Stimulus program actually came from Jason Yates, our now president. He called and said, "I have this idea. How would you feel about taking these funds and redirecting them to the Stimulus Package, that we can encourage businesses to reopen, we can equip them with the things that they'll need to not only reopen their business, but to just take that extra stress away of, 'How are we going to buy this back bar? How are we going to buy the color and the products that we need to give services?'" It's a lot of out-of-pocket money, especially during a tremendously stressful time. And it was a very, very quick yes from me and then subsequently a very quick yes, from our owners and it went
from there. And I think that, to answer your question, one of our super powers, being that strong commitment to the industry, that's what made it such an easy, yes.
Michaeline DeJoria (14:22):
We knew that that was who we cared about the most. We knew that the industry was most important and this was a conversation that was absolutely had. I was very clear, I said, "Look, I think that..." And the owners 100% agreed. I think that if we can do in this time where we don't know what's going to happen to the globe, to the economy, to any of it, if we can invest all that we can back into the industry that's gifted us with so much and supported us with so much. Even John Paul Mitchell Systems ends up having to close its doors. We would do so very proudly because it was the right thing to do. We never went into self-preservation. We went into preserving our family and that is our customers, the hairstylists and the entire beauty industry. So, we did things a little backwards, but that super power of being committed and having those strong values ended up really bearing well for us as a company. We came out so much stronger than many did, and I think it has everything to do with that.
John Paul DeJoria (15:23):
Our team mainly headed up by Michaeline and Jason Yates and Michaeline my daughter, of course, are headed up by a team that we put our customer first and the planet before profit. So, our customer and the planet go before our own profits. And we're willing to spend our profits to enhance our customers, the hairdressers of America and the world. We're global, obviously in 105 countries, as well as keeping the planet and the people, okay. That's our first priorities. And we'll eat up all of our profits, whatever we need of our profits to do that
Maggie Miller (15:55):
John Paul, watching your documentary, Good Fortune, you have such an incredible personal background from being raised by a single mother, spending some time in the foster care system, being homeless, living out of a car, to being a multi-business billionaire. And you said you saw these obstacles as an opportunity to work hard. You were selling Christmas cards for your family to eat. You're selling encyclopedias to go to college. And I love your personal and corporate motto, "Success unshared is failure." And so, I did read that you get this great high out of giving and that you think that every company's obligation in life has to help somebody else out there because it's like paying rent for being on planet Earth.
John Paul DeJoria (16:40):
Well you said the right words.
Maggie Miller (16:43):
Absolutely. So, what you just said about preserving family and preserving planet and eating profits, if you have to, what advice do you give to company leaders who are just growing companies who are worried about this pressure for profit? When they're asking, "Oh, it's not the right time for impact, or I'm not ready to take on any corporate responsibility or social responsibility. I have to worry about the profit first." What would you tell those company leaders?
John Paul DeJoria (17:10):
I would give them an example of some of the things we started on. If there are certain things you truly believe in, that you know is good for yourself, your family, your city, your planet, it's people, start out immediately. I'm going to give you an example of this. I had left one company, because they were testing on animals. And I just kept on complaining, complaining, and that didn't over go with upper management, even though I was part of the lower upper management. So, I got fired because of it. So, when I started John Paul Mitchell Systems realizing this experience, I refuse to buy a product from anyone that tested on animals. Now, we had no money. So some of our, [inaudible 00:17:49], said, "We want you to know that you're making this very difficult for us, because most everyone tests on animals, it's difficult for us to find someone that has some of these ingredients, that's not animal related. You may have to pay a little more."
John Paul DeJoria (18:01):
We said, "It's okay. Here's how we want to start this company. It's tested on humans, not on animals. And Paul Mitchell and I are the humans, we're going to test it on. And if we need hair color, we'll find a friend that wants that hair color." Because we, [inaudible 00:18:13]. We found a way to incorporate. Now, we had no money to give back for the first many, many years of this company. This is just with Paul Mitchell, but Paul and I would get involved in little things that we could do by personally showing up and speaking, as little as, go pick up some papers off the beach and you'll throw them in a trash can. In other words, we did things that cost money or supported things by just showing up and being there.
John Paul DeJoria (18:37):
So, you could do that without having to worry about your profits being thrown in, just kind of supporting whatever you do, that same thing as, something that they could all do right now, if they want to get an ecology and they don't have any money, they're starting out. Look at all your lighting fixtures. It's so inexpensive to buy these lighting fixtures that automatically turn on and turn off when you leave the room. We did that with John Paul Mitchell Systems warehouse, and a few other things we did to save energy. And when we looked at this, oh, this is about 10, 12 years ago, we ended up saving about 25% of our electric bill. And needless to say that it affected everything around us. So you could still do things you believe in, just find the things to do. And the light switch is just one great example.
John Paul DeJoria (19:19):
And of course, until you get your light switch, whenever you leave the room, shut the light off. But those light switches that work automatically just one great example. And when I had no money, for example, and even in my biker days, I would go to Griffith Park in Los Angeles. And this was during the sixties, we had [Levin's 00:19:37] and all that. And at Thanksgiving and at Christmas, we would have all this food donated to us that we would feed the homeless or people just needed to go place for a good meal at Christmas or Thanksgiving. Well, I didn't have any money contribute, but I would go there and contribute my time. I'd be there serving food in line and afterwards helping clean up. And it made me feel wonderful. Whenever you give to somebody else and ask absolutely nothing in return, I have found it's the greatest high you'll ever get. And I'm a child of the sixties. So, it's much higher than anything we spoke in the sixties, okay. It's a great hop, you knew, [inaudible 00:20:15], or someone else without asking anything in return.
Maggie Miller (20:17):
I love that. We frame it in our book, Hannah and I talk about it, as giving time, talent and treasure. And so, you've really put a beautiful story together there. Thank you for that.
John Paul DeJoria (20:28):
Sure.
Hannah Nokes (20:29):
Michaeline, I'd love to hear, given the history of the company and what John Paul described about the commitment to doing the right thing, even when it wasn't always the cheapest thing or the easiest thing to do, what do you think now in your role is the value to the company, for that commitment over time, in terms of loyal customers, an appreciation in the industry and customer word of mouth?
Michaeline DeJoria (20:57):
I think it's everything. I think that one thing we have learned from 2020, and I think on a bigger scale, people are starting to see overall, is that there are a lot of fads and there are a lot of things that can come out of nowhere and then leave out of nowhere. And that you can't predict. The only thing that you really can count on are humans and human relationships, values the planet. Those are things that we can touch and feel. Those are decisions that we have control over making. And through it all the only way to weather any storm really is to have a strong foundation in your home. And the foundation of our home is absolutely built upon the people and the relationships, not only of our team, but again, in the industry as well. So, that's something that isn't a fad, that's something that's not going anywhere. And I think it's the most valuable thing that our leaders have been able to build over now, 41 years, that'll carry us through for, I hope four million more.
Hannah Nokes (21:56):
On that note. Michaeline and JP let's stop right here, but coming up in the second part of our conversation with John Paul DeJoria and Michaeline DeJoria, John Paul shares important lessons, he learned about himself before founding John Paul Mitchell Systems.
John Paul DeJoria (22:09):
People have to know that in life, certain things are going to happen for you. That's going to lead you on to better things. Go along with the flow. Don't fight the flow because something at the other end is going to come out okay. I have a saying about that, "In the end, everything will be okay. And if it's not okay, it's not the end."
Speaker 1 (22:30):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Magnify Your Impact, a production of ForbesBooks. If you want to ignite purpose in your own company, connect with Maggie Miller and Hannah Nokes, at magnify-impact.com.
Part Two
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome to Magnify Your Impact, presented by ForbesBooks. Each week, our hosts Maggie Miller and Hannah Nokes talk with business leaders, powering their company success with a secret ingredient, purpose. Here's Maggie and Hannah.
Maggie Miller (00:35):
Thanks for joining us for the conclusion of our conversation with the co-founder of John Paul Mitchell Systems, John Paul DeJoria, and the company CEO Michaeline DeJoria. Michaeline, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your start in the company in 2007. I know you started on the plant floor and then immersed yourself in all aspects of the business before you took on a leadership role. What did you discover about the company literally on the ground floor that you never realized?
Michaeline DeJoria (01:06):
I started everywhere. There really wasn't one department where I started. I jumped in with both feet as I often do to things I'm passionate about. And I spent time in every department, whether it was the production floor, whether it was purchasing, whether it was finance. I wanted to really ask questions, even questions that seemed to me like everyone knew the answer, but me, I was never afraid to say what I didn't know. I'm still not. That's one of the things I'm proud of as a leader. I ask a lot of questions and I learned, and I learned, and I can't really pinpoint one specific thing that I picked up, but I will say that the overall theme I got out of it, which has proven most valuable to me in this position is, I understand very well the implication that every decision I make has on the other departments in the company.
Michaeline DeJoria (01:56):
For example, one I like to use is, if they ask me blue cap or white cap, that might seem simple and it's just about a color preference. I in a millisecond have already scanned through, this is how it's going to affect skew count. This is how it affects operations. This is how it affects my launch in Europe. This is how it's going to affect the pricing on that. And whether that's split between vendors or not, I now have to deal with consistency, batches and I know that that's workload on one more person who's going to have to qualify that through the engineer. I know which colors are not going to work for certain categories. The launches that are coming out of one department coming up soon may conflict because I might need that color for it. There are endless things that go through my mind in a split second when I'm faced with one of those choices. And if I hadn't spent the time in every department to really understand that domino effect, I couldn't possibly, nor can any leader, in my opinion, make the best decision in that moment for the company.
Maggie Miller (02:54):
That's incredible.
Hannah Nokes (02:55):
And even beyond that, I would imagine that your empathy for the people inside your company at every level is so much greater because you can really understand how they work and how their role fits into their entire life.
Michaeline DeJoria (03:12):
Absolutely. I think one of the things that's really helpful for me too is I do have a great relationship with the team and we've had a very collaborative working relationship throughout and I am constantly checking in with them. You know what? Yes, let's add this to the agenda. Yes, let's add this to the development calendar. But I know that we just added this, this and this, and I know what your workload is already. Would you like to bring in an extra person? Do we need to hire out for a short time? We always check in with our people to make sure that they're not spread too thin and that they're being seen and valued in their time also because it's not just a bottomless pit of resources that they have. We're humans working together and we can only expect for them to give us as much as we're willing to give them. So empathy is absolutely important.
Hannah Nokes (03:57):
And that same empathy obviously extends to the industry and your partners in the industry.
Michaeline DeJoria (04:03):
Absolutely.
Hannah Nokes (04:04):
Can you talk a little bit about how you cooperate with others in the industry, even competitors to have a positive impact for the industry as a whole and even for the world as a greater whole?
Michaeline DeJoria (04:18):
Yeah, absolutely. We've never been a company and you can look this up. In 41 years, we've never bashed other companies. We've never compared ourselves to others and put them down. We are all about greater good for the greatest number for the greatest amount of time. And again, we love this industry far more than we love even ourselves. So it's about our people, it's about the team we work with and it's about the industry and that comes first.
Michaeline DeJoria (04:40):
For example, some of the things we do is I personally, I have friends that are in the industry as well, and you could consider them competing brands. I don't. I consider them friends in the industry. It's another familiar face, and we do learn from each other. We have open transparent conversations. "Hey, this worked for you. This didn't really work for me. Hey, I have a great person for you. Can I get your advice on this?" We like to lift each other up. I sit on the board, beauty industry group out of Salt Lake, and it's again, just another facet of how, hey, I've learned through trial and error. This is what I can pass on to you. Hey, you see something that I don't. Again, at the end of the day, we are helping the industry be stronger. And to us, that's the ultimate goal.
John Paul DeJoria (05:23):
Yep.
Maggie Miller (05:23):
Yeah. That's a great example I think of how you're always looking to deepen connections and do the right thing by our stakeholders. It's just wonderful to hear how you guys are enacting that.
Michaeline DeJoria (05:37):
Thank you.
Hannah Nokes (05:38):
Michaeline, you've said that watching your dad work when you were growing up and seeing his passion for his work was always really captivating for you. And as a fellow ultra busy mom of three, I think a lot about what I learned growing up and what I want to impart to my three girls, what are some of the greatest lessons that you hope to share with your kids?
Michaeline DeJoria (05:59):
One of the lessons, which as you've said, if you're a working mom of three kids, you can relate is, I was really focused for the first probably decade of having kids on making sure that I was there for everything for the kids. They come first, they come first, I'll be at every pickup, every drop off, every this. And my son who was in fourth grade, I believe at the time said something that changed my entire perspective. And this is the lesson I now hope that I'm sharing with my kids. I was late picking them up like 20 minutes from school. PCH was closed. There was nothing I could do about it and I was panicking. I got there late I'm like, "I'm so sorry guys. I'm so sorry." And he just said, "I'm so confused." I'm like "Why?" He goes, "Because you always told us it was okay to make a mistake." And I was like, "Oh, okay."
Michaeline DeJoria (06:44):
So I've been trying to show them this whole time that they're the most important thing, but really what I was modeling for them was, you have to be all things to all people all the time with no room for error. So that was a really big shift for me. And so now, that really enlightened me to realize that the message I hope I'm giving my kids and the example that I'm showing them as a working mom is that there is a tremendous amount of value in working, in being a parent, and also in yourself and to just go easy on yourself and do your best and you do what you can do. And that is part of the joy of being alive.
Michaeline DeJoria (07:20):
We're supposed to enjoy everything we're doing. We're not supposed to feel bad if we're not nailing it right on the head every single time. So I've learned to go a lot easier on myself and hope that the work ethic and the sacrifice that comes from that is something that they see as important and valuable and not something that they see as a replacement of my priority on them. It's an addition to, not instead of.
Hannah Nokes (07:44):
Exactly. And I think that having them see you fail is a very valuable lesson as well.
Michaeline DeJoria (07:50):
Yeah.
Hannah Nokes (07:51):
John Paul, do you have any examples of failure in the business that in hindsight, you're happy that they happened or you feel like they taught you or your family a good lesson?
John Paul DeJoria (08:00):
Oh my God. Yes, and I really look at this in a big way after a year or two of John Paul Mitchell Systems finally being able to pay their bills on time. When I worked for Redkin and got fired because I
complained about them testing on animals, and my divisions were doing great. And then I got fired by Pharmadel because I wasn't one of their inner chic people, they told me, and The Institute of Trichology because they got a guy to do my job for half the price that they were paying me, I realized this, because I liked all three things I did, that had it not been for being in all three of those and getting fired onto another, being fired onto another. Had it not been for all of that, I could have never started John Paul Mitchell Systems, whether it was $700 or 7 million.
John Paul DeJoria (08:45):
So what happened was, they were all a learning experience for me. People have to know that in life, certain things are going to happen for you that's going to lead you on to better things. Go along with the flow. Don't fight the flow, because something at the other end is going to come out okay. I have a saying about that. In the end, everything will be okay. And if it's not okay, it's not the end.
Hannah Nokes (09:13):
I love that.
John Paul DeJoria (09:13):
And I have some good words I want to go in. I guess it was one of the questions you wanted to ask me about. I have a bunch of grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and that would be, what are some of my suggestions to them, to give them a more thriving and better life? What could I do to scoot them along? And one of the things I'd do for my own kids and even those that aren't my own kids, for as many kids as I can is tell them all this. The world has changed a little bit, and what we want you to know is this. If you gossip, if you speak bad about somebody else, if somebody does something to you and you want to get even with them, or you're jealous because somebody has something that you don't have and you carry it around on your shoulders, you are going to be suffering way more than they ever will.
John Paul DeJoria (09:55):
Forgive them all. It doesn't mean you have to love them. Love them from afar. "Hey, I love you. I forgive. Go over there." You don't have to talk to them. But in your self and your own mind saying to yourself, "I forgive you. You're a jerk. These things happen, but I don't want to think about you anymore. You don't deserve it," and go on with your life. And at the same time, what I say to all the younger people is this, don't listen to television and social media and take it all that serious because ... And as a great example is, both sides don't tell the truth. So all of a sudden, a group starts and, hey, the thing to do is let's be part of the masses. Now the masses want to do this, or now the masses want to protest and break windows. And now the masses want to do this or that. I'm part of the masses.
John Paul DeJoria (10:39):
What a lot of people are forgetting in life is it's not important to be part of the masses. What is important is to know, the masses are made up of individuals. Once you become part of the masses because they taught you or brainwashed you and how this was right, everybody else is wrong, you are no longer an independent person. You are now going along with a wave that all of a sudden you agreed with because there was nothing better to do. So don't let social media influence you. Don't let the news influence you. Go from your heart, period. You don't have to be part of the masses to be important and be recognized. Be an individual and stand on your own two feet no matter what your friends think about you, be yourself. Don't be the sheep, be the sheep herder.
Maggie Miller (11:28):
I love that, be the sheep herder.
Hannah Nokes (11:31):
And John Paul, I was just going to mention that I heard you speak to the Boys and Girls Clubs in Austin several years ago and you made-
John Paul DeJoria (11:38):
Oh, cool.
Hannah Nokes (11:40):
Yeah, it was great, and you made some similar comments about really standing for yourself and not going with the whim of what others want you to do.
John Paul DeJoria (11:50):
[crosstalk 00:11:50].
Hannah Nokes (11:49):
And I really appreciate that about your story and about the way that you coach young people.
John Paul DeJoria (11:55):
Thank you.
Maggie Miller (11:56):
John Paul, I saw your wife Eloise and you referred to in an article as stewards of the world. In 2011, you signed the giving pledge, pledging to give the majority of your wealth away to address some of society's most pressing problems. I know that you both established the Peace, Love, and Happiness Foundation to invest in people and a sustainable planet. As fellow Austinites, Hannah and I love your commitment to serving the local homeless population through various projects. Can you tell us about these initiatives and why they're important to you and Eloise?
John Paul DeJoria (12:31):
Oh, you bet you. There are so many needs out there, and we look at it this way. I think it is the responsibility of every human being to just stop for a second and realize, we came into this planet regardless of your financial situation with your family that you came in with, you came in with absolutely nothing. Okay? Period. Now, while you are here, isn't it only proper while you're alive and while you're in a human body before you leave it again, while you're still in this body, isn't it proper to do a little something to pay rent for being on this great planet earth? Paying rent is like saving the planet a little bit. Do something to make your city, your state, your country, the world better off because you are here. You're the one that's going to do it for future generations.
John Paul DeJoria (13:19):
And not knowing what anyone's belief is, and we cherish everybody's belief on what happens, we all, I think agree that when this body that we're in right now dies, something happens to that spirit. That
spirit's not still in the body. All that's left is raw meat, period. The spirit is gone. Now, whether you come back to this planet or not, or whether you go to what people consider heaven and I don't believe there's a hell out there, but I just believe that you'll learn along the way, right? Whatever it is, you're also setting it up maybe for yourself to come back here again, or future generations. In other words, take care of and make the planet better off because you are here.
John Paul DeJoria (13:56):
Now, in my case, I come from means where there were no means. I had no money. We were pretty ... let's call it financially challenged, right?
Maggie Miller (14:05):
Right.
John Paul DeJoria (14:05):
In a big way. I am so thankful and grateful that I have what I have today. It's my duty to give it back and to give some of it back. And let you know how the giving pledge works, we all pledgers, about 200 of us now I think.
Maggie Miller (14:18):
That's good.
John Paul DeJoria (14:19):
We have all pledged to either give half of the money that we have earned that we have back either while we're alive or after we die. A lot of people just do it in their trust after they die, or a combination of the two, which is what myself and maybe half of them do to make the world a better place to live. Number one, it makes us feel wonderful, and we pay a little bit of rent for being here. If you think that way that I'm here and because I'm here, I can make a step, whether I'm acknowledged for it or not, that's going to help out future generation, and you don't even need someone to say, thank you, thank you, thank you, and the gracing of the world, you know that you did it and are able to acknowledge yourself, boy, are you a free human being.
Maggie Miller (15:00):
Absolutely.
Hannah Nokes (15:02):
So Michaeline, speaking of making the world a better place and the future and the future of the company, John Paul Mitchell Systems has made a global sustainability pledge, and one of those efforts includes the brand's first ever clean beauty line. Love to hear a little bit more about that and what are your biggest goals for how the company will support the environment for future generations?
Michaeline DeJoria (15:27):
It's an excellent question. Sustainability for us has always been majorly important. We pioneered Cruelty-Free in 1980, we found it in '83 and off the grid solar powered Awapuhi Farm. It goes on and on and on. When we launched the sustainability pledge, really the idea was we've learned a lot and times have changed and there's even more which is so exciting that we can do now, so let's go after it. Our top four pillars in this pledge was reduced virgin plastic, sustainable and ethical sourcing, minimizing waste to landfill, and reducing our carbon footprint. In addition to all of those things, there are so many tiny subheaders underneath each of those items. I could go into whether it's from how we do things in the offices and in the warehouse from tree-free paper to electric vehicle charging to solar panels that help our warehouse and manufacturing unit, to things like bio-based packaging that we're using in products, to things like how we ship, to sourcing, to recycling tools, to offering incentive programs, to salons to recycle their tools through Homeboy partnership that we have.
Michaeline DeJoria (16:41):
There's a tremendous amount that is known to us more and more every day that we could be doing. And I think the important thing to note is the sustainability pledge for us was a huge move and a huge step and we are very transparent about it. We have a progress tracker on our website, and that was a very clear director from so that it keeps us accountable and everyone can see where we're at. We're a corporation who walks the walk, always. And the important takeaway though, is that it's always evolving. So what we did then was incredible. What we're doing now is incredible and what we'll continue to progress to and do 20, 50, 500 years from now will also be because we learn more, right? And if we're not learning as we grow, we're not really growing
John Paul DeJoria (17:25):
Well, Mike you said something very, very important. I'm listening to her talk to you. She keeps on saying, we, we, we, we, we. By doing things as a company, it encompasses all of us. So it's not John Paul's doing this. Angus is doing this, Michaeline's doing this, Jason's doing this, Peach's doing this, Luke is doing this. It's not that at all. It's look at what we're doing. So our company feels that and knows that they are part of it, and they are proud. They go home and tell their family, "God, look what we're doing. We saved these homeless people. We created these jobs. We got rid of this smog. We saved all these wells to the Sea Shepherd and look at all this stuff." They have pride. So when they go home, they are very proud of the company they're associated with is doing all this because they're doing this. Look what we are doing together. It unifies the company even more.
John Paul DeJoria (18:12):
And I bet we have less turnover than any other company in the professional beauty industry. And by the way, to give you a couple of little insights to our industry from Michaeline's, I can't resist, she's my daughter, okay? She is the youngest CEO of any male or female in the haircare industry worldwide.
Hannah Nokes (18:29):
[crosstalk 00:18:29].
John Paul DeJoria (18:29):
She's the youngest CEO, period, of many men or women around. And I believe in the professional haircare company, she is the only CEO of any haircare company in the world.
Hannah Nokes (18:39):
That's amazing.
John Paul DeJoria (18:40):
I might throw something else in there also I'd like to add in there. Another reason, when we came out of this virus, all of a sudden, we were getting a lot more customers than we had before. And why is that? Because during the time of need, by putting our hairdressing clientele first and giving them the startup packages, giving them millions of bucks, go right back into business again, the word spread to others that, hey, nobody else is doing this. Look what Paul Mitchell ... I mean, they're not as big as some of these other giant companies. They're in the retail industry and professional beauty industry and all kinds of industries. They're only in this industry, but they're giving to us to start over here where the others aren't. They're pulling back on education, Paul Mitchell's moving ahead with more education. They're not giving these extra startup kits, Paul Mitchell is. They really love the hairdresser.
John Paul DeJoria (19:25):
So all of a sudden, everything is going back now towards normal and we're picking up customers that just heard about how cool it is to be part of our family. They want to be part of it. They want to be part of this movement that they know is a good movement, it's a genuine movement, and it's one that's coming from the heart.
Maggie Miller (19:42):
That's wonderful. John Paul, as a tequila sipping aficionada, I've been on the Patron Express, which I love dearly. But more importantly, I loved visiting the gorgeous agave farmers in Tequila and Guadalajara in Mexico-
John Paul DeJoria (20:00):
Sure.
Maggie Miller (20:01):
... and just wanted to know about your experience being with those farmers and the land and just your thoughts about that.
John Paul DeJoria (20:09):
Oh, wonderful. I would say that Mexican workers are some of the best in the world, in the world. Whether we have them in the United States working for us or down in Mexico, they go out there and they get the job done. And they're so simpatico, just so nice to you. So I got nothing but extremely great experience, worked in the field with them. I've chopped agave with them at one time out in the field. And obviously I was down there several time in El Platanito where the plant was at. And my experience with them is just wonderful, hard-working, very loving person. In fact, when my ex-partner died in 2003, and I had all my distributors together with Patron, all of them came from all over the world to say,
"Well, how are you going to direct the company now, JP?" And they asked a question of my number one guy there, Francisco Alcaraz. He was the formulator of our fine tequila. Right?
Maggie Miller (21:04):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Paul DeJoria (21:05):
And they said, "Francisco, tell us a secret of Patron. Why is Patron so good constantly, and it's really hard for others to try and match?" And Francisco, without hesitation, looked at him and said, "Oh, that's very easy. We make the product with love. JP and our group treat us so well down here, they love us. It's the only thing we could do, because we are part of what he does and part of what we do, we put love into it." We have an unbelievable low turnover. Paul Mitchell, probably the lowest in the beauty industry, and the Patron people that love what they do, who they do it for and who they did with. It's all about managing with kindness.
Maggie Miller (21:43):
That's amazing. Michaeline, I love your Instagram profile. Never perfect, always grateful. Life is short, throw sunshine, not shade. I just thought that was such a beautiful way of presenting yourself. And so thank you for the time both of you. It's just been so inspiring.
Michaeline DeJoria (22:01):
This is a lovely interview. Thank you guys so much for having us. This was great.
John Paul DeJoria (22:06):
Peace, love, and happiness.
Hannah Nokes (22:06):
Thank you.
Maggie Miller (22:07):
Thanks again John Paul and Michaeline, and that's it for this episode of Magnify Your Impact. If you enjoy the show, make sure you take a second to subscribe so you automatically get our new shows when they drop. Also, if you have a minute, we'd love if you leave us a review so more people like you can discover the show.
Hannah Nokes (22:26):
Thanks for joining us. See you next time.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Magnify Your Impact, a production of ForbesBooks. If you want to ignite purpose in your own company, connect with Maggie Miller and Hannah Nokes at magnify-impact.com.
